All About Shame with Dr. Keren Sofer

Today’s episode is dedicated to all the families who have been brutalized by ICE for far too long, and to the protesters and people in Minnesota who have lost their lives in the fight for justice and collective liberation. This conversation about shame, healing, and accountability feels especially meaningful in moments of profound pain.  Shame is inseparable from the systems of dominance that try to silence, control, and dehumanize.  Let this moment remind us what is at stake when the cost of standing up to power is so high.  But the cost of standing down is even higher.

Please join me in a deep dive about shame with my friend, Dr. Keren Sofer.  If you would like to connect with Keren, you can find all her offerings here: drkerensofer.com

If you are clinician and would like to attend Keren’s upcoming workshop on February 6, 2026 for 4 Continuing Education Credits (CEUs), you can register here: drkerensofer.com/trainings/

This episode was recorded on January 12, 2026.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Lunar Context
• 4:00 Welcome Dr. Keren Sofer
• 5:28 Personal Loss And Early Career Shame
• 11:03 Defining Shame And Integrity
• 16:23 Shame, Shadow, And Socialization
• 22:06 External Vs. Internal Shame
• 26:50 The Compass Of Shame: An Overview
• 31:30 Attack Self And Attack Other
• 37:10 Avoid, Withdraw, And Dissociation
• 42:35 Couples, Ruptures, And Shame Loops
• 47:05 Counter-Shaming And Repair Skills
• 52:00 Systems Built On Shame
• 57:00 Boundaries, Differentiation, And Connection
• 1:01:45 Accountability Without Humiliation
• 1:06:30 Practical Tools And Closing Invitation
• 1:12:30 Workshop Details And Sign-Off

Transcript

Setting The Lunar Context

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Welcome back. Get ready to dare together, Truth Seeking in the Depths. I'm your host, Erin O'Brien, licensed psychotherapist in practice for over 20 years, intuitive healer, relationship counselor, shadow worker, and dare I say the witch. Well, I am here today with a very special guest, my dear friend, Dr. Karen Sofer, who I've known for a very long time. I think maybe we met in like 2010. Sounds right. At a previous nonprofit that we both worked at. At the time it was called the Women's Therapy Center, and now it's transitioned into the Therapy Center of Philadelphia. So that is where I met Karen. And before we dive into why Karen has uh so generously come all this way to my house in Wilmington from her home in Philly, I want to speak just very briefly about the lumination that's happening today that serves as a bit of our backdrop for what we're going to be talking about. And so the moon today is in Scorpio, and it is in its third quarter phase, which is the waning of the crescent, and presents us with a vital moment of reckoning and integration. It's a reality check, a time to look honestly at what has served us, what hasn't, and what needs to be revised before moving forward. So there's an invitation to release patterns that are outdated and bring greater alignment or consciousness to your thoughts and actions. And revision becomes a sacred act of rebalancing, helping us distill wisdom from experience and prepare for renewal. So it's a pretty good timing that that is what the moon has got going on today in Scorpio, as you know, is all about diving deep, seeing things that are obscured, and trying to bring truth to all dimensions of our experience as human beings. So I'm going to name one more piece, and we're recording on January 12th, 2026. And that is what is going on in Chiron. And the sun is squaring Chiron today. It is inviting us to really embrace these old sore spots. And Chiron is a mythological figure that is the wounded healer, but in his brilliance and trying to seek healing, he becomes a profoundly devoted teacher. And so he is simultaneously all about seeking what is healing from the places that cause us pain. So it's all about integration and it's all about moving into the shadow. And so that is what we are here to go into today. And I am so excited to have my dear friend Karen here. And I'm going to let her introduce herself and anything she wants to share to give us a sense of who she is. And we're here to talk about shame and how it's really woven into so much.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

So hi Karen. Erin, I am so happy to be here with you. And thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me to talk about what has become my favorite topic of shame. Um, and favorite because it has really transformed my life to work with it, understand it, study it. And my passion right now is to really, you know, sort of shout it from the hilltops because I think it is potentially a real key to healing for all of us collectively and as individuals.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Beautiful.

Personal Loss And Early Career Shame

Defining Shame And Integrity

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, so happy to introduce myself. What really comes to mind for me, actually right now, Erin, sitting here with you, is remembering uh when I met you, which, as you mentioned, was when we were both working at this, you know, little nonprofit in Philadelphia, then called the Women's Therapy Center. And I remember it really sharply for a few reasons that I think also connect to the study and understanding of shame for me. I started in January 2011. And in fact, after my first week at the Women's Therapy Center, it was my first job after getting licensed as a psychologist and really excited to, you know, be working with the clients there and, you know, dipping my toe also into my own private practice at the same time. And about a week into my work there, my my brother died actually. And it was obviously devastating for me. Um, he was several years younger than me. He had been, you know, fighting a chronic illness, Crohn's disease, for his whole life. And here I was, I landed in this, you know, sort of beautiful community. Um, and then, you know, suddenly, you know, you know, had this real loss. Um, and you know, of course, my relationship with him was complicated, uh, a lot of uh twists and turns, ups and downs, but but really um uh somewhat of a shock, even though there was, you know, kind of always a uh feeling that you know his body might fail him at some point too soon. And I just remember already knowing you at that point a little bit and just having a sense about you that there was something special about you, kind, open, loving, accepting. And I I remember telling you, um, I barely knew you. And I just I felt that that sense of you know safety and openness with you. And so I bring that up because I think that really does tie to a lot of pieces of who I am as uh a therapist, a clinician, a psychologist, um, and as a human being. I'm for some reason feeling compelled to lead with I'm I'm an American. Um I that's really on my mind these days. I do some of my clinical work with immigrants and um immigration professionals in that realm. Um, I'm a mother. Um I have two beautiful boys uh that I'm raising and feel really solid and anchored in that part of my identity. I'm a cis woman, a wife, I have a husband. And in terms of other aspects of my identity, Jewish, you know, part of my my background is Iraqi Jewish, part is Eastern European Jewish. Um, so those are other parts of my identity. And, you know, my professional identity has also been very, very important to me. I really uh felt pulled to the field of psychology from a young age with a mom who is a social worker. And I think at the core, really, I think all along, ever since I was a kid, I was very tuned into acknowledgement, belonging, where do I fit in? Am I understandable? Am I worthy? Am I good enough? And and I think a lot of us are, but I really wanted to answer those questions. And um, what really brought me to the shamework is um a real sense that my professional identity was not secure. Um, I had some experiences both during my training and on the cusp of becoming a fully fledged licensed with the stamp of approval psychologist, where I was told in not so many words that there were doubts about my ability to be successful in this profession. And by somebody with power, um, someone in a supervisory, uh, authoritarian, I guess, um, role with me. Um, and it was a shock. It was devastating to say the least. And I think um, as you know, this one researcher, Lisa Etherson might have put it, my shame container was eviscerated. Um, and I really struggled with that for many years. And in fact, when we met, it was not very long after that happened, uh, less than a year after that had happened. And I came across several years later, you know, a podcast with uh called Therapist Uncensored, uh, Stephen Finn talking about shame. And I thought to myself, oh, that's what I have. And what was so striking to me was I felt it so in my bones about my role as a therapist, a clinician, as a psychologist. But I didn't feel that shame as becoming a mother. Um, and the contrast really made me, you know, zoom in on it more and understand what's different about this than that. What's why that? You know, what's going on with me there? I'm so, I was so convinced. I mean, every time I went into therapy, I would say, I really want to figure out if there's something wrong with me interpersonally or relationally, you know, and I think there were some shame spots around, you know, friendships. I think that was true. But with the professional piece, you know, and me really getting into my comfort, or trying to at least, as a as a uh professional, people were trusting me, you know, with their feelings and their secrets, uh, their pain. Uh, I felt a deep sense of insecurity about that. And so hearing that podcast, I thought, oh, I need to, I need to learn more about this. What's this got to do with what I'm struggling with? Um, and so that's kind of where I remember. You remember? I remember you telling me about the podcast. And it wasn't even the first time I listened to it. It was the second time. The first time, I guess it was interesting. I don't remember exactly. But the second time, suddenly I was maybe in a maybe the moons were aligned or there was some something in the air, something going on that I I really heard it. And I thought, okay, I I really need to get my hands on everything written about this uh to understand it better.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

And you have done so much with your work around shame in the different things that you're offering. You know, in my mind, every time you and I are connecting and having conversations about what you're learning about shame and the different ways that it shows up, not just in our experiences of trauma, that's a piece of it, but how it's so embedded in and kind of at the heart of what goes on in our work with relationships. You and I are both relationship-focused therapists and we work with couples and relationships of all shapes and sizes and kinds. And so the experience in the room with people when there's you know a misattunment or they get, you know, the attack-defend dynamic that comes up. What I've come to understand as I'm learning from you is how shame is really at the heart of so many of these uh ruptures that go on uh with our couples, with us and our clients, with us and our, you know, partners, friends, family, children. I mean, it's just it's it's there.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, shame is is embedded. It is, it's embedded. And um, even as I'm speaking to you right now, some of the things going through my own head, uh, little shame spots like, you know, I want to make sure that anything I say about shame, I'm I'm citing the right person, um, that I'm not stealing anyone's ideas, that I'm not overstepping, or, you know, what if someone with prominence in the field challenges what I've said here? Um, that's all shame, right? And some of it is really healthy, as Brett Lyon and Sheila Rubin would say, right? Some part of it is healthy in the sense that it helps protect me from crossing a boundary or taking credit where I shouldn't. It's protecting me from overstating, you know, maybe pieces that I've integrated myself in a unique way. It also is keeping me protected from maybe being shunned from the group itself of people who are interested in working with shame. And so it's always operating somewhere. And I think the question I try to ask myself is is it operating in a helpful way that's facilitating more depth and more awareness and more consciousness? Um, or is it actually interfering and inhibiting in a way that's further disconnecting? And so that's sort of my guiding principle in determining is it useful or not? And then I'd say the second piece that's important is what do we do about it when it's maybe starting to become unuseful or has been unuseful for a really long time? And so that's the question that that we all we all really do want to answer.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Absolutely. You know, I'm thinking about shadow work, which you and I have been talking about and how at the heart of it, regardless of what discipline or theory, whether you're using it from a, you know, in a therapeutic way, in a personal development way, in a spiritual way, that the through line has to do with expanding one's awareness because where there's more consciousness, there's more choice, there's more sovereignty, there's more integrity. Like we're not in this kind of reactive place or survival place, and it requires slowing down all of that stuff. And I'm thinking about how you're talking about shame, and I'm almost feeling like shame when it's serving a purpose that is more healthy. It's confronting us, it's giving us that challenge of hold on, are you in your integrity? Are you respecting someone's boundaries? Are you in right relationship with your commitments to yourself? It's almost like a it's the signal that tells us maybe that ooh, we've stepped out of our own integrity in some way.

Shame, Shadow, And Socialization

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Absolutely. Right. I love that. And the word integrity is a very important word to me. Yes. And just to maybe give a general definition of shame, yes, let's do it. So when I'm talking about shame, I'm I'm referring to it's an affect, it's a feeling, it's often what we experience when we're in disconnection, um, when we sense that we're in disconnection with others. And it's a sense that something fundamental about us is bad or unworthy. It's also a sense that we are invisible or unseen or abandoned. Um, and so it's an attachment emotion, as some say. And it also is uh a moral emotion, right? And so that idea of integrity, um, I do believe, you know, many of the ethical violations that people commit happen because they were trying to cover up their shame. Yeah. Or they were so unaware of it, it was so buried down that they were seeking to feel a sense of worthiness, you know, through deception or or manipulation. Um, and so they crossed an ethical boundary. Um, and then of course, the shame about the shame. Yes. Um, and so shame is also something that we can experience in relation to other emotions. And so I feel uh sadness. Um, and what kind of person feels sad like this and can't pull it together? A weak person, an unworthy person, right? Um, or even joy. And Steve Finn gave this example in his podcast, but I thought it was a compelling one because we don't often think about positive emotions triggering shame. Um, but maybe for for a person that feeling excitement, they were told as a kid to tamp it down and that they were too much and you know, too too energetic. And so now when I feel energetic and excited about something, there's like a little thing stopping me. Um, and so I go into I go into shame and that inhibits it.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Oh my goodness. Absolutely. And we were talking earlier before we started recording about how shame is just you could turn over any stone and you're gonna find shame connected to it in some way. And when I think about shadow work, it's right, it's the experience of you learn early on, you know, we rely on important others to meet our basic needs and all of that. And we figure out early on, oh wow, that is not accepted. That threatens this relationship that I'm so dependent on for my very survival. And this is all operating on an unconscious level, very kind of young, maybe even nonverbal level. It's I need to disavow, I need to disown this part of me, this response. And so positive and quote unquote negative experiences, expressions, interests get relegated to the shadow land. And it's and that is shame. Shame is the part, I I think you're connecting something for me that shame is maybe the mechanism how that part of us gets disavowed. How that maybe I yeah, I'm thinking about like gender socialization as like a a little girl, right? And and she takes up space and she's she has a has a strong loud voice and she's passionate and she's strong, and her body wants to move and she's got all this energy, immediately starts to be socialized. That, you know, all that stuff around like people. Quiet, be polite, move aside so someone else can sit down, like just all these ways that we're socialized, you know, specifically around gender and Western culture, to like take up very little space, be very submissive and deferential and all these things. And so that strength, that courage gets relegated to the shadow because it threatens your place in society, it threatens your place in your family, it threatens your place in how you're supposed to embody gender. But shame is doing that.

External Vs. Internal Shame

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Shame is like a part of that. Absolutely. And that's just such a wonderful example because cultures do decide what's acceptable and for whom in terms of behavior, preferences, appearance, so much. Right. And part of us, we do want to belong. Yes. And there's all these different signaling systems that show, okay, I'm part of this culture. I belong here. Accept me, keep me. Um, and what about, you know, the shame of those doing the socializing? And so when we think about intergenerational trauma, I mean, we can even expand that further. I think we can widen the lens and call it intergenerational shame. Yes. Because the people in power are possibly feeling threatened by the idea that someone else might have a better idea or a way that intrudes upon their way. And so, what better way to signal, well, that's not your place, stay in line, um, than by, you know, shaming, uh, reacting negatively to the spirit of that person uh coming out. Um, and that actually brings up another angle about how shame is defined and understood. Um, because we see some shaming behaviors among primates, for example, or in the animal kingdom. And that's because, you know, shame also has to do with kind of following the rules of the culture in terms of hierarchy and status. Um, and so we know that for some people, and and a lot of times it's people who are really socialized male, you know, any any sort of uh affront to their status is it can be experienced as shaming. Uh, you're disrespecting me, you're dissing me. Um, you know, a while back, you know, I was working with a teenage boy who told me, you know, he was out with his girlfriend and then some guy walked into him and bumped him by accident, but he like got in the guy's face and he said, Well, he was, and I said, Why like what was so upsetting about that to you? And he's like, Well, it was uh almost like he's saying, I don't respect you. Right. And so, so we can think about shame also through through that lens as well, uh, for some and and for others, you know, it comes up in in some different ways. But but this idea of, you know, there's this sort of code around uh alpha, beta, and and the order to things, and that when we do go into shame, that actually can protect us. Um, and so when we blush, when we look away, when we show um that we are getting in line, you know, in terms of our status, we actually allow the person who's trying to overpower us to kind of back off and retreat. Um, and so we can really protect ourselves. Um, and then we do see that I think in in kids, right? Fawning behaviors to a parent who might be mistreating them or abusive towards them, um, that it's that it's protective, uh, that it it prevents further further harm from happening. And, you know, I could even say in my own professional shame experiences, you know, I didn't talk back to the supervisor. Um, I froze. Um, and that helped me. That helped me. Um, and and so trying to see it through its functional lens rather than what's wrong with me that I didn't say anything. So not only am I being shamed, but now I froze, and now, you know, what kind of loser am I that I can't even stand up for myself? Yes. Um, it puts a different lens on it to call it shame. Well, I I needed to protect myself because I couldn't trust this person to really see me. And so attempting to push back or stand up for myself would be seen through the lens of being, you know, uh disobedient again.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Yes. Yes. You're you're making me think about um Janina Fisher's work. And I went to a training of hers years ago, and she talked this really stay with me. It's exactly what you're saying. She talked about how, you know, it was all about shame. And she was naming how when you're working with someone who has experienced trauma, and trauma, a quick way that I usually define it is too much, too fast, too soon for us to process in an adaptive way. That we often develop, right? These, you know, think about parts work or internal family systems, all that stuff, ego state therapy, that in the experience of that trauma, we, you know, have parts of us that develop to try to protect us and make sense of it, um, protect it from happening happening again. And so she referred to all of us sort of having these internal shamers or internal critics, these parts of us that are actually the unsung hero in how we survived our childhood or different traumas, because what comes from the shame is that the ex the behavior can look like submission, right? You submit, you defer, you kind of stand down. And what you're doing is it's it's protective, like you're saying, from the person in power who, had you not gone silent or withdrawn or shut down, you could have maybe been killed, right? Like you could have something even worse could have happened. And so how it really does, it's a survival mechanism in a lot of ways as well.

The Compass Of Shame: An Overview

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Absolutely, yes. And and that word submission, I was searching for in my mind before, but yes, that that's yeah, exactly it. And and I love that that idea of these unsung heroes, um, that shame is a an unsung hero sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes. And and to recognize it as such means that it doesn't become another another thing to point to to be ashamed of. Right. Right. I mean, it gets you out of that tangle of, you know, not only was I screamed at or or um chastised or ignored, you know, sometimes even worse. Um, but now I feel ashamed that I didn't fight back. And now I'm, you know, now I'm just layering up. You know, I think about it as like it's like these layers of shame that accumulate for for us. And I think that brings also to my mind, you know, in terms of the shadow work, I would be very curious, Erin, to hear more about how it conceives of, you know, sort of the origins of it. Um, and so something I've been also thinking about a lot is, you know, what are our different shame origin stories? Where does it start? Right. Because here's the thing shame is also a signal about an unmet need, an unmet connection need. You know, just like sadness might be a signal for us that our need for comfort isn't being met, or our need for compassion or closeness isn't being met. Our need for, you know, our sense of feeling satiated signals that our hunger needs are met. Um thirst is, you know, our hydration needs are not being met. And so to think of it in terms of needs, met or unmet, shame being my need for maybe reassurance, for a sense of being seen, acknowledgement, um, sometimes respect is part of that. My need to belong. I mean, let's get to the heart of it, right? Like in terms of attachment and relationships. And then the bind, though, that we get in is often as adults, our shame triggers are really connected to these shame origin stories because our parents couldn't meet all of our needs. Um, you know, one of the, you know, big ways that we um feel shame as adults, you know, and and there's as many ways to feel shame as there are people on the planet. Um it's very, it can be very idiosyncratic. And there are some, you know, universals or some that tap in for a lot of people, and even things about, you know, who we are culturally, racially, um, how society treats different groups in terms of how stigma and shame are related. Um, but if you're a if we're able to understand where our shame sort of started from, um, you know, even if we grew up in a family that more or less, you know, was caring and met our needs, um, we all have it. We all have ways our need wasn't met. And then just having a need in and of itself can be a shame, you know, a shame experience for us. Um, because a need makes us dependent on others. Yes. And then the shame of dependency, like you were talking about before, uh, can is is a shame trigger. And then the way we resolve that as a child is to say, okay, I'm not gonna, I can't be angry at you, caregiver, because I need you to survive. I'm only five years old. I can't be angry at you. I'm going to blame myself, you know, that I touched the stove and you didn't stop me. Right. Yes. Um, and it must mean that I make bad decisions or I'm stupid, right? Or I deserved it because I'm bad in some way. Um, and then we carry that forth, right? And then as an adult, when we're being unacknowledged, uh we feel the shame. Um, and then we find these ways to manage it, which we can talk about as well.

Attack Self And Attack Other

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Absolutely. And you're making me think about that incredible article that you sent me a while ago. That where is the title? Oh, Affect Theory and the Compass of Shame by Donald Nathan. And it taught I love how it talked about shame being first affect, right? Biology, and then feeling, which is like the perception or the felt experience of that affect, and then the emotion of shame having to do with the biography, the, the, the shame origin story, all of the filed experiences that connect to that experience that's like being activated in the present, but it but it also brings in a whole index of past experiences of shame. And I never heard it broken down sort of like that in such a simple way. Like affect is biology, emotion is the biography. It's kind of like all of it coming together. And I love what you were just saying, Karen, about the shame signaling, the presence of an unmet need. And I'm thinking so much about when people struggle with giving a gratitude or appreciation or acknowledging someone or recognizing that someone does something kind or loving or takes care of them in some way, does something to help them. And in my mind, that struggle to just express gratitude or appreciation has to do with some shame experience around needs being met, or that that person needed the other to do something, because it makes them feel it brings up vulnerability, and also it being dependent or needing comfort, being a little one was not accepted. It was you you could it was better for you to be independent and self-sufficient and all those pieces because maybe your parent was overwhelmed or or had intergenerational shame. I can't tolerate your need for me because I can't tolerate my own experience of being needy. So I'm gonna shun you or fully ignore you. Just all the through lines of this.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Wow. Yes, yes, a hundred percent. And I really appreciate what you said. I will share my gratitude with you uh right now about that connection. I I think that makes a lot of sense. And I hadn't quite framed it that way before, but I I really love that idea of what make what does make it hard for us to share gratitude and to say thank you and appreciation. Perhaps it's a reminder of our own shortcomings, which we might feel shame around. Perhaps it is, like you said, you know, an acknowledgement of I need you. Yeah, I need you. Um, or maybe not even I need you, but my life is enhanced because of you. Yes. Which maybe is even, you know, more intense for some people. Uh, you make things better for me, but then I can't admit that to you because what does it say about me on my own?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Yes, even maybe in a more neutral or even like more negative experience, right? You impact me, right? Like how challenging, I I know, at least for me, it has been to be emotionally honest with someone when something has happened that has hurt my feelings or impacted me. It's almost like shame is definitely the underbelly of why I can't go though. It's hard for me to go there with someone.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

It's so hard and you're not alone. Everybody struggles with that to some degree. And it's and it's this it's this paradox that we get really trapped in, right? Because, you know, and I had a recent experience with a family member where um this person was doing some pretty hurtful things, the the most hurtful of which was ignoring. And there's something about that withholding or or not acknowledging that feels, you know, being iced out that that really, really stings in that that shaming kind of way. And recognizing that even the act of acknowledging it to the person that I'd been hurt was saying to them, hey, you have an impact on me. You exist in my mind and in my body, my my feelings, and the fear that I don't exist in theirs. Yes. And then having to confront that fear. Um, and and that the dismissal would probably, if that was the way it was received, which it wasn't, but if it was, then that being further evidence I don't exist in your mind, do I? Oh that's how worthless I am in your eyes.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, yeah. Interesting, right? And and and yet probably the lack of acknowledgement has to do with that other person's shame, right? Their own sense of there's something about you that's making me feel bad about myself that has to do with my own stuff.

unknown 35:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

But but maybe it's so deeply buried and unconscious. Um, which something I literally just read about two days ago, because I keep devouring things about shame, is that they there in some of the literature, Gershon Kaufman makes this distinction between external shame, which is I believe like I'm worthless in your eyes, versus internal shame, which is more associated with that complex trauma, um, which is I am worthless in my own eyes. Oh right. And that, and that often people within the internal, you know, kind of toxic shame is what they sometimes call it, will also have the external that kind of starts with the internal. Um, and and the external is a little bit easier to work with, but that in fact, neglectful parents or abusive parents or caregivers, you know, leads to the internal shame because we see ourselves merged with our parents, like you were saying earlier.

Avoid, Withdraw, And Dissociation

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yes. Yes, yes. I are you're you're making me think about the mirroring that we get from the people that we're most dependent on, whomever is raising us, our parents, our caregivers, how they, you know, when we walk into a room, do they meet us with delight? That recognition of you are so lovable, you are so amazing, I'm so happy to see like reunions, right? Right. And or do we catch something on their face that's overwhelm or you know, contempt for our existence, right? Because now they have to deal with us or whatever. It's just it's so it's so deep. And what was something that that Jeannie, my partner, actually said a couple days ago, we were talking about the use of the word hate, you know, and how just when that's used and when our kids might say it and and how what what it brings up in us. And we were talking about this idea of like hate is the opposite of love. And Jeannie was saying, actually, the opposite of love is apathy. It's no, it's like absolute, you don't exist, right? And I just it feels so uh true to what we're talking about right now.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Yes, and I think we can all attest to this that when we're in shame, it it's akin to existential annihilation. Yeah, right. And and why that's so part of people's despair, you know, and that's why despair can seem so so dangerous, but it can also be a signaling system, right? Around, okay, I need I need anchoring and connection now. I need to let that in.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Yes, yeah, yes. What you said earlier really uh it resonated with me how the piece about shame being a part of a signaling system of needs. And I was even just thinking about, you know, when I'm when I'm having a conversation with someone I'm close to, or for you know, Jeannie, for example, and and I'm sharing something with her, and I can feel some part of me longing, like wanting something from her. And if if it doesn't come, I I think what I start to experience is this an experience of shame. It's an experience of hold on, are are you there? You haven't responded, you haven't acknowledged whatever that thing was that I shared. And it can happen so fast. It's just this sort of moment that comes up and and then I feel the way that I maybe work with it at the moment, not being more conscious of it, even just right now, and like reflecting on it. It's sort of this way that I might, you know, getting into the compass of shame a bit, right? It's like I might then want to move to to sort of criticize her and be like, why aren't you paying attention? Didn't didn't you hear me? But really, what I'm feeling in that moment is hold on, do I exist right now to her? Do I not matter? Did she is she not paying attention? And it and but then I move into the criticism, but it's all about shame. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Right. It's it's like an intolerable experience. And so we have to find a different way to explain it. I'm feeling this way because you made me because of something wrong with you. Yes. Um, and the the the interesting Piece, I think, or the piece that helps it all make sense to me is oftentimes the reason you know the other person can't quite respond the way we need is because of their own shame.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

They feel overwhelmed. Oh, see, I can't handle things, or they're distracted by their own preoccupation about XYZ that might be touching into their own shame because shame takes us out of being present. We really can't be aware of shame in the exact moment that we're in it. It shuts down our thinking, it shuts down our reflective capacities. So it's tricky. It's tricky. We can start to catch it faster and we can start to identify the ways we manage it so that we can then go back, reroute, and go back and say, okay, right, I'm being really critical right now, what's going on with me. But it can't be simultaneous, at least from my perspective. It's it's literally impossible because of what happens at the brain level. Yes. Um and whether it's like a little drip of shame or a shame spiral, you know, which there's a continuum there. And I think because shame's so complicated and multifaceted, uh, it's it's hard for people to um even want to try to understand it because it's also just unpleasant to think about in some ways. You know, it it can be uh sort of overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Yes. Yes, yeah, yes. It's okay. So so thinking about the compass of shame. Yes. And ways of kind of what we what then happens when we're trying to cope or what behaviors start to present, how we are relationally, when that shame experience gets activated inside of us. Yes. So I'm gonna let you uh talk about the compass of shame because it's just really amazing.

Couples, Ruptures, And Shame Loops

SPEAKER_01 41:55

It is amazing and it's so helpful. Uh so Donald Nathanson was a psychiatrist in Philadelphia at Jefferson Um Medical Center, and he did a lot of work on shame based on Sylvan Tompkins' affect theory. And so he he kind of built on that foundation and added some ideas to it. And then a few others have added to it. And then I have my own little thing I sort of added on as well. But, you know, he talks about shame, you know, being so overwhelming and unpleasant that we, you know, we develop these strategies and these ways to manage it in the moment. And I've come to believe that pretty much anything defensive that we do, you know, whether it's criticizing other people or isolating ourselves, is linked on some level to shame. Um, so his initial compass of shame had four poles to it to describe, you know, some common ways that we tend to manage when we are experiencing shame when we observe in others. And so I'm gonna start with attack self, attack other, which are on opposite poles. Um, attack self might be the most classic way we think about shame, um, but it is also a way we manage shame. You know, what we tell ourselves, oh, I'm such a loser, I'm so stupid. How could I have done that? I'm disgusted with myself. Um, you know, and it can be on a superconscious level where we're actually talking to ourselves in a fairly demeaning, critical, mean, um, sometimes, you know, devastatingly uh cruel way. And it can also be, you know, different behaviors like self-harm. Um, and so I think of it almost on the continuum from the mild, you know, I lost my keys. Oh, I did this again. Why can't I keep it together? You know, and then I can move through it fairly quickly and say, okay, I made a mistake, you know, transform that into maybe healthy shame or guilt. Um, but to the real extreme, right? Where people are really harming themselves, threatening to harm themselves, chronic suicidal ideation to even, you know, suicidal gestures or suicide. Um, and so we think about how shame is so much a part of a person wanting to end their life. Um, I'm I'm not even worthy. I don't matter, I don't make a difference. Life doesn't have meaning, and I'm better off, you're better off without me, in fact. Um, and then the flip side of that is attack other. And so just flip that around and and sort of have it, people attacking others. I think the thing that we don't always realize is how subtle these can be, right? Um sometimes people are in shame and attacking themselves, and it's it's very subtle or attacking other and very subtle. And so I'm sure we've both met and and had uh people in our lives who are very intellectual. And so, you know, they're they're kind of digging into us, but it's it's wrapped up in a lot of fancy words, or it's um, you know, they're talking in generalities, but we know that they're they're after us, right? Um, you know, it's it's like, you know, maybe I'll do the the uh you know the navigating this time because let me do it this time. I want to take it off your hands, but it really is an attack other. It's really uh, I don't bel I don't trust you to do this. Um, so you know, and then of course, what we're seeing in our world right now, which is breaking my heart uh every time, um, is the attack other at the at the really extreme. And so we see bigotry, we see hatred, um physically harming others, intimidation, inciting um fear, also stigma, you know, that we that we see in society.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

And and even just the murdering of Renee Good that just happens. Yeah, thanks for naming that. And when I was I I have not watched all the footage around it, but Jeannie was watching it and shared with me that you know there's some footage where after, you know, she's shot and murdered, that you can hear audibly someone saying something like really horrific in that. Um, and I don't want to you know repeat the words, but you know, the the F word and and the B word. Yes, yes, and so just all that, right? It's just this like it's so that annihilate that annihilating force that I'm coming to just destroy you. It's so dehumanizing.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

And if I think about it through the lens of shame, um, I I might understand that was a attack other in justifying the absolute uh murderous force and that uh there was uh shame that that officer felt, I I would suspect.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Yeah.

Counter-Shaming And Repair Skills

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Um very, very, very few people on this planet have no shame. And so what a quick reflexive way to sort of justify, well, better off dead. In essence, is what that person, uh what the what that officer was saying. Yes, yeah. Um, and so at least it it it helps me stay engaged.

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Um, because if there's if there is shame there, then perhaps there can be reckoning and accountability. Um, you know, but obviously if if systems, and this kind of brings up actually, Aaron, you know, the systems level piece. Um systems that are infused with shame, systems that are run on shame. Yes, right. And so we see that many different levels right now. Oh yeah. In in full force. I think it's always there to some degree. Yes, right. But uh yeah, you really, we really see it amplified right now.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

And and I think also, you know, just like the dynamics around um, you know, we can't actually force others to feel shame. And this is something I think that would be a really good thing for the public to absorb um and politicians and people with power. We we we can't. You cannot force anyone to have shame. It depends on their own shame origin story, it depends on their own social location, their own shame spots. We can't make anyone feel shame. What's happening now, though, is that we are inducing humiliation on others, and that's a distinct thing from shame. That is the attempt to shame another through exposure, through cruelty. Um, and what ends up happening is the other person does not experience shame about the thing you want them to. They actually end up feeling shame about being shamed. And then they either lash out or they withdraw.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Yep. Yes, right? I mean, it makes me think about all the conversations and attempts to bridge or raise consciousness or have more collaboration in places of difference. It's uh inducing humiliation and it's it's it's go it's going back and forth and it's not going to move anything.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Doesn't move the needle at all, right? Because it then becomes a sham hot potato, as it's been called, and so you humiliated me. Well, you wait. So no, it doesn't, it doesn't get any anywhere good. And I try to take a an optimistic or at least hopeful approach to that, which is to look at it as a skills deficit that rather than there's something inherently wrong with these people, in quotes, which in in and of itself is a shaming term, right? And so to understand okay, what skills is that person lacking that they don't know how to take accountability for their part? Because that's also at the heart of shame is either taking too much or too little responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yes. Ooh, I yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

Yeah, yeah. Attack self is often taking way too much. Yeah, attack other is taking too little.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

Oh, wow, right.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

And so you can sort of see that continuum. Yes, that continuum in that way. Um, and then the other poles of the compass of shame are avoid. And so avoid might be, you know, I'm gonna, you know what, I don't want to think about that, that situation at work where I I underperformed, I'm gonna have a drink, you know. Yes. Um, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, you know, be a workaholic so I don't have to come home and face the fact that my marriage is in shambles. Um so I'm gonna avoid it because I feel like a failure. But I don't want to think about that. So so let me let me dive into something that I can feel accomplished or good about, right?

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Um, and so you see avoid, you know, and sometimes it might be subtle, like um, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna not walk past their desk at work in the office. Um, and and sometimes it's a little bit, you know, more embedded in, you know, is the maybe the way a person has managed their whole life. Like, you know, someone who's had 20 activities always lined up, right? And and part of that is to stay really, really, really busy because um then they feel useful. Um, and so they can then, you know, avoid maybe confronting their sense of purposelessness, for example. But then avoid can go also to an extreme place for people, and you can see it um sometimes in dissociation.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Um, you can see it, oh yes, yeah. So yeah, depersonalization and so um avoiding, you know, really splitting even off uh in your own mind and level of consciousness.

Systems Built On Shame

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Yes, extreme experiences of dissociation, dissociative experiences, dissociative identity, experience, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Yeah, and you can see how, you know, in its initial form, you know, maybe if you're really being victimized in a very severe way, you might dissociate and it's protective of not being fully conscious of what's happening to you and in your own powerlessness in the moment. Um, but then when that strategy, and I and I sort of I don't love calling it a strategy because I I don't think of it as a choice, but when it becomes a way in which a person unconsciously manages, you know, it's sort of a deep sense of alienation and and shame, then it takes them out of their lives. Yes. Um and so it can be really interfere.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Absolutely. And the thing that the piece you mentioned with taking a drink, the beginning of the avoidance piece, I was also thinking about how looking at, you know, back to affect theory, the interest excitement attention pathway, affect pathway is uh where people as a way to manage their shame through avoidance, right? That's where you see people in the extreme sense doing heroin kinds of right, like because that in the biology keeps the focus on excitement and interest. Whereas I know the affect of shame is the impediment, it interrupts that.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

It is. And and then when society moralizes addictions, right? Then it's a stigma, then it's another layer of shame. And then it's oh, I fell off the wagon, now I'm I'm using again, and now I feel shame about that, and now I'm probably gonna use again, right? Because now I have to manage that shame. Yes, and this is my way of managing shame. So it gets people really stuck. It gets people really stuck. And so I think interventions that really address the the underlying shame and reject the notion um that you know there's there's something, you know, about you that's immoral, right, uh, and is able to really reject that. Um, you know, have a better chance, I think, of and and develop other strategies. Right. Of course. Um and then the last poll that that Nathan Sin developed is is withdraw. And withdraw is just that. It's it's really I'm gonna move myself away from the group. I'm going to pull myself in. Um in a healthy way, it can mean I'm gonna reflect on what just happened there. I'm gonna try to make sense of this and what part is mine and what part isn't mine, and what part is the others, and how do I uh come, you know, show up again and re-engage. Sometimes withdraw can go to an extreme again, you know, like isolation. Um, so it might start out as, okay, well, you know, so-and-so texted me. I don't really feel like responding. Um, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe I'm so like stirred up about this, like I really don't have words to communicate about the situation or even clearly with them. But I uh, you know, I'll be able to re-engage. I just need a little space too, like real, really isolating, really withdrawing, um, almost to the point of like rejecting, rejecting contact. And so the the other thing just to point out about the compass of shame, because we could talk about this all day. Yes, right. And I won't even get into the other, you know, sort of more nuanced ones on here right now, but is that when I'm an attack self, I might trigger, you know, your avoid because maybe your shame spot has to do with I don't feel effective interpersonally, or I don't know how to comfort others because you know, you have some shame origin story that maps onto that. And now here I am telling you how down I am on myself, and you freeze. And so then you avoid, and then I feel abandoned. And then it reinforces my sense of, well, I guess I am a loser, you know. Aaron can't even comfort me right now. Yes. Obviously, it's totally not true for you. Totally. But you can see how it, and then you can see in the the couples you work with, the couples I work with, right? Um, and it can be particularly bad when an attack self person who manages their shame by attacking self is paired up with someone who does attack other. Because then they're caught. Yes, right. Yes. So you attack me and then I just double down on myself, and then I double down on myself, and I'm disengaged from you, and you get triggered more in sense of abandonment, and then you attack me more.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

Right. And we we have to break loose of that. And then avoid withdrawal can be tricky too. A little less common though, because people who well, I don't know if that's true. I have to think about that. But I think people who maybe tend to avoid feel comfortable for people who manage shame by withdrawing. Yes. But then they never talk about it and they might seem like they don't have conflict.

Boundaries, Differentiation, And Connection

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Mm-hmm. Right? The these these are like the conflict avoidance sort of patterns or dynamics where they it it looks like, oh, well, we never fight.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

Right, right. And I think I think those are sometimes called these like avoid avoid. But I maybe maybe I would call it avoid withdraw because two avoids are not going to necessarily get together. One person might be more of a, you know, doing using withdrawing as their as their strategy. Yes. Versus avoiding. And they're distinct. I think it's an important distinction. Um so yeah, so that's Nathan Son's compass of shame. And it's so useful, right? Because very rarely is somebody going to come up to you and say, you know, I just felt a little bit of shame there. No, they're not gonna do that, right? They're gonna be like, well, I I kind of have to go. Sorry. Um, I can't talk anymore. Right. Um, they might, they might withdraw. Um, or they they might just change the subject, avoid, right? Or they might say, Yeah, I know, I'm I I I know, I don't know what's wrong with me. I can't just get it right. Or they might say, All right, I know you've told me this already. Like you you seem to find something wrong with me all the time, you know. I might, you know, and so so they're not people aren't gonna be direct about that because they're not fully conscious of it. Uh, none of us are. And so, um, you know, even the other day, my husband accused me of um attacking of being critical, right? And I'm like, I am not being critical. I'm right, you know, you're picking on me. That's the truth, you know. And I'm like, okay, what's going on with me here? Um, let me reflect and figure out what's my defensiveness about. And maybe I was feeling a little ashamed because there was a little bit of truth in the fact that I was preoccupied and not being more present with him. And I don't like to think of myself as a person who's not attentive for those that I love. And so I had to find a way that it wasn't about me.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yes. So even just the way you mapped it onto the way that it shows up, the way it gets like sort of embodied and enacted relationally, and how shame is the thing, right, that we don't talk about. It goes unnamed because we feel shame about shame. And so it's like this double bind. And and then if we're not being able to tune into something and give it attention, we can't be more conscious about it. And so then it stays sort of relegated in the unconscious, in the shadow to just then run amok and and be enacted. And so part of what I'm hearing is the way to work with our shame is to slow down because we can't be fully conscious of it as it's happening, like mechanistically in our biology. But we can start to train our awareness or put intentional attention on what are the things that my partner exhibits when they're in shame, or what I start to feel, or what I'm being told I start to do when I'm in shame. Shame and uh how to then maybe slow it down and see shame as an invitation to be more conscious, to right, to like be curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

That's right. Yes, that's right. And and I think Brene Brown talks about it this way, right? That that curiosity, compassion are the antidotes. And I love the idea of invitation to say, hey, pay attention. Like something's happening. Something's happening here that's tying into your identity, who you want to be, how you want to show up, and how you actually are showing up, and what's going on in that space. Um, and how is that helping you and how is it hurting you? And and I love that idea, right? It's more caught like you were saying, it's you have choices if you slow down enough to recognize it's happening.

Accountability Without Humiliation

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah. I I love how you just held the the complexity of the both and how is this helping? How is it hurting? Because it acknowledges the usefulness that is there in terms of our survival or our uh shame origin story, maybe offer some gratitude to I see one sung hero over there that is telling me to fawn in this moment or make myself really small or agreeable or to not speak up. I get what's going on, or I understood why you did that. And then to be able to really be with what's going on, it's such an invitation to process past experience of shame. I mean, there's just so much there. And the way to counter shame or work with shame or re-engage with ourselves, with someone else, like what are some of the things that that you understand?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:58

It's really important to know your own shame spots first. You have to because otherwise you'll be blocked in the exact moment you need to be present. And so that's the first piece, I think, um, for for anybody, whether you're a therapist or not a therapist, and everybody. Um, and even kids, and even kids can understand this. It's it's quite amazing. And so I think, I think it's understanding, okay, these are my shame spots. And and I think through through digging into that and reflecting on that, it makes it clear how much we have to tune into other people to recognize, okay, and where are your shame spots coming up? And then, you know, the heart of your question is, okay, how do you handle that in a way that achieves, you know, counter-shaming? And sometimes it's about being able to affirm what the underlying purpose is, um, being able to see, for example, with my husband, he felt ignored. Why did he feel ignored? Because I matter to him. Yes. My attention matters a lot to him. And if I can hold that, that allows me to then say to him, okay, you're right. I was preoccupied. And that's about me.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

And so the clarification is a really important piece around uh counter-shaming. Um, what I notice is that when a person starts to let go of their shame defense, the story gets more complicated about what happened. It wasn't just that you were mean to me. It's that, uh, oh, right, I didn't call you back last week. Or, oh, right, you were going through that hard thing and I sort of forgot. And so I personalized it 100% as about me. Right. Like it starts to get more, more nuanced and more complicated. And then we have more capacity for that both and understanding that maybe I was negligent in some way. And it doesn't mean I and I can still care about you at the same time. And so I think it's like, how do you get that message through in a strong way? Um, maybe I'll I'll sort of wrap that question up with a little anecdote about my four-year-old Will, who is a sensitive soul and really needs that reassurance that the love and steadiness is there because when he's corrected or a limit is set with him, he goes to you think I'm bad. And he on one occasion, you know, just dissolved into sobs around that, even, you know, in response to a very gentle redirection. Um, and what I landed on with him was, you know, even when I'm disappointed in something you did, I still love you. And it's now turned into a way that we of course correct and do that repair. Um, you know, when I've corrected him when he's hit me because he's frustrated. Say, I know you're frustrated, but I don't like being hit. It doesn't feel good for me. And and we can you can tell me why you're frustrated, you know. He says, Well, you still love me even when, even when I hit you. And I said, I do still love you even when when you hit me. And it sort of regulates him enough to be able to re-engage and and get anchoring and say, okay, well, then let's find a better way to solve the problem of your frustration. Um, you know, because I'm I'm hearing you, and then we can work it through. And I think there's versions of that with adults, right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Okay, I'm thinking about what you're saying about holding the complexity. I can have my experience and I can see your experience, and both can coexist, right? Like I see you're frustrated.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yes.

Practical Tools And Closing Invitation

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

I understand that, and I don't like being hit. Right. Like, and that's also you self-defining. This is where I stop and you begin, my dear. Experiences of self-definition or differentiation, setting boundaries, right? Setting limits, all that stuff falls under self-definition. Like this is what I think, that's what you think, this is what I want, this is what you want. When they're in when they're different, really, just quite simply. It can be experienced as a moment of separation, a moment of, oh, you don't like what I did. And I'm thinking about how separation can be that experience of of shame. Oh, you don't agree with me? Where it's it's being confronted with that what I'm hearing you talk about in the counter shaming, it's like holding our connection and this place of difference, this place of how you impact me and I love you. Like it both can exist there, the connection and the differentiation. Whereas I think sometimes when we differentiate, we set a boundary, we say, I actually don't like when you don't call me back. It it makes me feel sad. It can feel like our choices are only connection or disconnection.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

Yes, right? Yes, yes, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. We need our our separateness, we need our differences to have healthy connection. Yes. Like that's the core of it. And Gershon Kaufman has a quote about that that even in the healthiest of connections, of relationships, there's shame. Yes, and it we need it, we need it because we do need some separateness even in within the connection. Yes, we have to know where we end and the other person begins and where the overlap exists. Absolutely, absolutely. I think this is a full circle moment for me because I think part of what we're struggling with at a societal level, Erin, you have your view, and my view is anti-that view, and therefore you're against me, and therefore I have to destroy you. And that's where we are societally. And it's it's sad and it's scary. And I think we all have, you know, a part to play in ways big and small, in terms of, you know, just being really conscious of how our language is shaming or not, that that's also putting shame into the world, which, you know, some might think in terms of nonviolent communication, that's putting violence into the world too. My hope in terms of wanting to like bring shame awareness to the fore and sharing what all of these amazing theorists and thinkers have have really developed on to bring it, bring it forward and and to and talk about it because a lot of people have worked on this stuff. Um there's amazing ideas out there, and I want them to be, you know, alive and invigorating, especially right now. I think we need it more than ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Oh, thank you so much. That absolutely it's what's coming up for me as you're speaking about this piece, there's an uncomfortable recognition that I think we're all invited to do right now related to our humanity, which has to do with we carry all of it inside of us. In my mind, with shadow work and shame work, it's this understanding that the collective unconscious exists in us in the micro sense. And I think it's easy for us, it's more comfortable for us to relegate them to the shadow and say, oh no, it's those people out there that are capable of doing these harmful things. I'm not a part of that. But the reality is the only way through it is for us to recognize that we're all a part of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

Yes, I I agree. And and I I love that description. And I it it had me just now thinking we all have oppressor potential within us. Yes. And if the conditions are right, and here's what makes the conditions right for that is that we have unmanaged shame. Yes. That's what brings it on. Yes. And that's why it's extremely vital that we manage our own shame, which means, like you're saying, Erin, acknowledging feelings sometimes. And and then recognizing, okay, I don't have to go into a shame spiral about that. I can recognize those are feelings. And those feelings actually reflect my way of managing the shame of my powerlessness. Yes. Right? The shame of my despair. Yes. Um, and so can I accept on some level my my powerlessness so that I can work with it, that I can I can create some some ripples of change here. Um, but if we don't acknowledge it, exactly what you said, um then I'm gonna be stuck in the uh avoid. I'm gonna be stuck in attack other, right? I might I might withdraw. Maybe I hope a person would withdraw in that, right? Rather than go to attack other. Um, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love I love that what you were saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:18

Yes. Well, thank you so much. This is kind of fun. And um and invigorating and inspiring in all the things. So what I would love to do is let people who might be listening know where they could find you. I know you have a really amazing workshop CEU opportunity coming up as well. So if you want to just, you know, let people know where they can find you.

Workshop Details And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

Great. Uh, so I have a website. It's drkarensopher.com. And I'll put that in the show notes too. Thank you. And I have a my second round of a four continuing at APA credits coming up February 6th, Friday. And it's for clinicians, uh, mental health professionals. And the title is Deepening Our Connections, Leveraging Shame to Address Impeses and Improve Psychotherapy Outcomes. And so it really deals with foundational understanding of shame and what it is, how it operates, all its complexity, covers, you know, the compass of shame is another way to recognize and understand shame. And we're gonna dive into also how do you counter shame, how do you actually address shame in the clinical space. So in in ruptures that exist with clients and reframing ruptures as shame events. I love that. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Yes. Okay, beautiful, wonderful. And it's virtual.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

That's the other virtual and interactive. So you can you can be anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:01

Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

Well, thank you so much. Thank you. This was this was so great. And I love the way that you know, both shame and shadow work are trans-diagnostic, trans-theoretical. They're meant to be together. So yes, love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:19

Oh my goodness, yes, I love that too. And and and I think that we can leave this here for now and maybe we can have another chat again soon. Thank you for tuning in. So I'm your host, Erin O'Brien, as above, so below, as within, so without. Bye for now.